• cRazi_man@lemm.ee
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    2 months ago

    This is such an insightful way to articulate the issue. The conversation mostly revolves around individuals (“men are bad”). This is one of the few times that men are talked about in a way that acknowledges the system at play, that they are a product of an environment and society that has shaped them a certain way.

    I’ve lost the podcast source that talked about “there is no good way to be a man currently”. Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.

    • Chinchillax@lemm.ee
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      2 months ago

      The best example of good manliness in media I can think of is Bandit from Bluey.

      The options are pretty slim if a cartoon dog from a children’s show is humanity’s best example of being a good man.

    • leisesprecher@feddit.org
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      2 months ago

      We, as a society, are still trapped within the “feminist revolution”, there’s fighting going on and no new normal emerged.

      Both sides are ripped apart by two often contradicting sets of expectations, the traditional role and the progressive role.

      What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.

      And that also reflects on women, to put it extremely bluntly, he’s expected to pay for dinner, but she still wants equal pay. It will take decades to sort all of that out.

      • LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        It sucks. As a dude, I feel it’s almost impossible to balance being confident and approaching women you don’t know and also not being a creep or bothering them. I’m not the best but not the worst when it comes to looks, I have many friends of different genders (shoutout to my enby fellows who have to deal with this mess and also discrimination) and I’m confident in most things I do aside from dating. It’s gotten to the point I just won’t ask women out due to anxiety over coming across as a creep or bothering them, and instead endure loneliness. Which is not great, but it is what it is.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        What makes it so hard for a lot of men is, that it’s a willful surrender of privileges. Men lost a ton of privileges over the last decades and it takes a bit of reflection to understand that these privileges were never legitimate in the first place. Instead, they frame women’s rights as weakness, because it directly contradicts their narrative of a strong man.

        the important distinction here is that these privileges were the reason that men did what they did. Without them now men don’t really have an overall driving force through life. Without the expectation of “being a strong man” they literally have nothing to live for in society.

        • JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          Being a good human being is an option for everyone.
          And I know this is from a kids cartoon, but Uncle Iroh from Airbender embodies benevolent masculinity pretty well. If we want children and young men to be socialized better, a good place to start is with our media depicting more characters like that.

        • leisesprecher@feddit.org
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          2 months ago

          That’s what the post above mine meant by there not being a positive manliness.

          Progressive manliness is described as a substraction from the old ideal. We simply have not yet formed a positive, progressive male identity.

          • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            yeah, we need to work towards building something that solves this problem sooner rather than later, if you’re a parent now, you should be figuring this out now, and if you want to be a parent, figure it out before you have children.

        • WldFyre@lemm.ee
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          2 months ago

          What?? So when you were a kid ,you just wanted to be a “strong man” when you grew up??

          • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            2 months ago

            there was nothing i wanted to be when i was growing up. I got the question of “what do you want to do” but there isn’t exactly a good answer to that question and nobody seemed to ever really care either. Things are more focused on education and not being an asshole individually, as opposed to be a socially good person who respects other people.

            It should be no wonder that people raised like this turn to figures like andrew tate looking for some semblance of something to focus on.

            the reason why strong man is quoted is because if you don’t grow up to be a strong person, as a man or a woman, or whatever in between, you fucking die.

    • Rozaŭtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      2 months ago

      Even for someone who wants to be a better man, there aren’t role models or celebrations of " good manliness". There’s no positive road map, only a list of “don’ts” and stereotypes to avoid.

      Bluey.

    • NostraDavid@programming.dev
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      2 months ago

      there aren’t role models

      What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behaviour.

      Robin Williams was always a standup guy, Keanu Reeves seems like a nice guy, Ryan Reynolds seems to be a standup guy (but he has a hard monetary incentive to keep this image), the guys from Cinema Therapy seem to be decent. Do these people count as role models?

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        2 months ago

        What would you expect from a “role model”? Just a person who does good for its own sake? Doing so would be something that’s not publicized, so it’s hard to show off good behavior.

        people that are the stereotypical mr rogers of the real world. We really do just need more people that are such good people that just they instill goodness in others on a fundamental level. That and people willing to spend time educating others.

        if you aren’t a stereo-typically perfect individual, that’s fine, you almost certainly have something useful that you can teach someone young that’s around you.

    • redempt@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      therapy is a good place to start. men need to want to improve themselves. many don’t. I find this issue to be more prevalent among older generations who are extremely resistant to therapy.