I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you’re the one bullshitting.
The most “extreme” it can get in such systems is that they won’t pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they’re not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it’s actually worth it (as in: for something that’s a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That’s “your quality of life won’t be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they’ll only pay for a not as expensive one”, not “death panels”.
People in those countries absolutelly aren’t going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called “Mixed Systems” that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System, and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
I’m talking about Universal Health Care systems (for clarity: totally free healthcare for residents in that country), not Public Health Insurance systems.
Europe is unfortunatelly also riddled with the latter system and having lived in countries with one kind and countries with the other, they’re quite different and the system with Insurance is invariably worse in terms of denials of coverage as well as cost (also because nowadays they all have laws that force every resident to have health insurance, which as result is more costlier than before those laws - as I saw first hand when I lived in a country with such a system when such a law came into effect), whilst UHC tends to have longer waiting lists (think 1 or 2 years of wait for some cirurgical procedures).
Absolutelly, some of the absurdities of the US system are also present in the so-called “Mixed” Systems (i.e. the ones with healtcare insurance but more regulated and with a public option for some) and if you look at the kinds of governments in those countries for the last 3 decades, you’ll notice they’ve been invariably neoliberal mainstream parties (setting up such systems is part of the broader tendency in Europe to privatise just about everything that has been going on since the 80s and was copied from the US).
IMHO, except for the long waiting times, the problems with Healthcare systems in part of Europe are the result of them having been transformed to become more like the US system in the last 3 decades.
Exatcly they dont know shit. While american healthcare system is clearly fucked there are many problems in european healthcare ( very country dependent tho ) ranging from lack of qualified doctors and long waiting times to very expensive treatments not covered in eu for some reason ( the one ive seen the most being uber expensive often experimental treatment where you usualy have to go to america ).
From what I’ve seen, treatments not being covered are only the case were those treatments are very expensive and there are other effective treatments (though less effective) which are much cheaper.
There’s also often a delay between a new and very expensive experimental treatment coming out and it becoming covered because it won’t be covered if it doesn’t demonstrate that it’s advantages over the other available treatments are sufficient to justify the additional cost.
Mind you, I’m talking about Public Healthcare Systems, not the so-called Mixed Systems that have mandatory Health Insurance (usually highly regulated and with a Public Insurance option for the less well off) - Mixed Systems have some of the same problems as the US System at least in my experience living in countries with one and with the other kind of system.
The UK NHI doesn’t work well because the neoliberal parties in successive governments (both the Tories and New Labour) have been defunding it so that they can - like Thatcher did with the railways - once its quality has fallen due to lack of funds claim that it’s bad because of Public management whilst it would be much better if it was Private because the Private Sector is much more competent, and privatise it.
Just like the US has fatcats that are perfectly happy to mass murder people for personal profit, so does the UK (and the British Political System is almost as bad as the American, so it’s definitelly sold to the highest bidder) and plenty of those jhave wet dreams of the country having 13% of its GDP flowing through a Private Healthcare sector like the US were they can make billions of pounds doing exactly the same as the fatcats do in US Healthcare.
Source: I lived in Britain for over a decade.
By the way, you “read that the UK NHI doesn’t work very well” is exactly because the UK media is overwhelmingly owned by tax avoiding billionaires who are part of the above mentioned fatcats who see themselves as profiting massivelly from Britain having a Healthcare System like the US. It’s not by chance that the level of trust of Britons in their Press is one of the lowest in Europe.
The exact same kind of tactics were deployed by Tatcher back when she wanted to privatise the Railways with the result that satisfaction with the Railway system in the UK is now even lower than when there was a public operator even after Thatcher defunded it to claim “Public is Bad, Private is Good” to amass enough public support to privatise it.
I don’t think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It’s incredibly rare now. But it’s true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
No, they got sick, now they have a long lasting condition and can’t work because of it.
They did get treatment but can’t be cured (as of today long-covid is still a mystery).
They didn’t lose all their money because of the medical bills, they’re losing their money because they can’t work anymore and the state is not giving them “benefits” (horrible word in this case).
One is an issue with healthcare, one is an issue with social welfare, again, not the same thing.
Complètement diminuées, des personnes atteintes de Covid long font face à des délais de plus deux ans pour savoir si elles auront droit ou non à une rente AI. Incapables de travailler, certaines finissent ruinées.
In english:
Completely disabled, people stricken by long COVID face delays of more than two years to know if they will have disability benefits. Incapable of working, some finish bankrupt.
Is this not an example of medical bankruptcy ie. bankruptcy due to a medical condition?
Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
If you’re disabled and on disability income, it will absolutely not cost you 800 euro. You will be put in front of the queue for the free one. That’s why I, able bodied working person with slightly above median income, had to wait. And I think it’s as fair of a system that is possible under the circumstances.
That’s not how it works in my country. Great that that’s how your country works. The vast majority of those with universal healthcare don’t work like that.
I used to work for a disability advocacy organisation so I can assure you that.
For every case of a disabled persion on benefits having to wait 1.5 years for a non-urgent operation because they can’t afford private healthcare, there are a million of cases of people who get a common problem like Diabetes or Cardio-Vascular problems and get treated for free (down to getting the medicine for free, which for a person below the poverty line will be true even for the worst countries) rather than suddenly being faced with an extra monthly bill for medicine (which would be a massive hit for those poor people you cosplay as caring about for the sake of argument) or a massive bill for urgent surgery.
(Which reminds me: one thing that will NEVER happen in one of those countries, unlike in the US, is when one ends up in the emergency ward and requires an expensive treatment to save their life, they won’t get a massive bill at the end)
Oh, and even if you pay out of pocket for medicine, it’s way cheaper in those countries than the US, as governments have used their leverage to limit what Pharmaceutial companies can charge, unlike in the US.
The healthcare risks for the average individual in countries with Universal Healthcare aren’t even in the same universe as in the US.
Mate, as I’ve said it’s not one but TWO countries I lived in with Universal Healthcare, and you can’t be a Nationalist (as you’re trying to imply) for TWO countries.
If you’re comparing like to like - i.e. the average poor disabled person in both a country with Universal Healthcare and the US - you’re going to get some cases of those having insufficient treatment in countries with UHC (especially in those were neoliberal governments have been defunding their UHC systems to try and privatise Healthcare even against popular will, like the UK), whilst the vast majority of those people will be fucked in the US (unless they’re Veterans).
I’ve lived in several countries and it’s just an enormous peace of mind living in a country were you know that if you’re involved in an accident and end up getting costly treatement in an emergency ward, you’re not going to be ruined.
I think you’re seeing the problems relative to a specific baseline and you think that there are massive problems there (which I’m sure there are) but the thing with the US system is that the baseline itself is way worse and all those problem you see would also be problems there but much worse (or maybe not, as those people would die a lot faster, at which point no problem would be visible) and on top of that in the US there are way more people with even worse problems when it comes to Healthcare than the “poor disabled person” in a country with UHC.
Dude I’ve lived in France, Switzerland, Austria, and the UK.
I’m not trying to tell you universal healthcare is bad. I’ve never said the US system is better, in fact it’s far worse. Don’t straw man me.
All I said is the statistics on the meme are false and ignore a lot of suffering and death. And you took that as a personal attack on universal healthcare.
I know it would be covenient to accept this meme as true, but it very much isn’t.
Just like insurance companies in the US don’t cover everything you need, sometimes even lifesaving treatment, the same (though less extreme) happens in nearly all public health systems.
I say this as someone who has gone through this and become tubefed and deaf as a result.
Having lived in two countries with universal healthcare, that meme is absolutelly true and you’re the one bullshitting.
The most “extreme” it can get in such systems is that they won’t pay for very expensive treatments (i.e. the kind of stuff that costs a million dollars per shot) if a person can keep going with cheaper ones even if they’re not as good.
Even then, sometimes they will if it’s actually worth it (as in: for something that’s a cure, not for something that just keeps the patiet going and is only 10% better than the next best option whilst costing 1000x more).
That’s “your quality of life won’t be as good if you have a chronic disease that makes your life miserable and the best treatment in the market is insanelly expensive because they’ll only pay for a not as expensive one”, not “death panels”.
People in those countries absolutelly aren’t going bankrupt due to being denied life-saving treatment and having to pay for it from their own pocket.
As for any complains you might have heard from people in countries with universal healthcare, them complaining about it is like people in Scandinavia complaining about public services: relative to what they have there are bad parts, which is something altogether different than it being bad relative to the World and when it comes the healthcare the US is 3rd World when it comes to results delivered relative to the amount spent in it.
PS: For avoidance of confusion, by Universal Healthcare I mean countries were the State provides the Healthcare and you get it without paying, not the so-called “Mixed Systems” that also exist in Europe (for example in Germany and The Netherlands) and which have Mandatory Healthcare Insurance for all residents, though much more regulated and with a Public Provider for the less well off. Mixed Systems do have some of the problems of the US System, and massivelly depend on the strength of local regulations and the seriousness of the Regulator to not decay into the same kind of situation as the US.
Sorry then.
I guess me living my entire life in a system with universal healthcare, being denied treatments that could have prevented me going deaf and needing a feeding tube is all in my imagination.
The treatments for these werent extreme. It was a fairly simple drug therapy that costs around 5’000 Euro per year and is sold in my country.
It just isn’t on the list of drugs covered by public health insurance. As I’m surviving on 12k per year disability benefits, I could not afford the treatment.
But just because it never impacted you you assume my experience doesn’t exist, because you have the privilege that the system never didn’t work for you, so you assume it works for everyone.
I’m talking about Universal Health Care systems (for clarity: totally free healthcare for residents in that country), not Public Health Insurance systems.
Europe is unfortunatelly also riddled with the latter system and having lived in countries with one kind and countries with the other, they’re quite different and the system with Insurance is invariably worse in terms of denials of coverage as well as cost (also because nowadays they all have laws that force every resident to have health insurance, which as result is more costlier than before those laws - as I saw first hand when I lived in a country with such a system when such a law came into effect), whilst UHC tends to have longer waiting lists (think 1 or 2 years of wait for some cirurgical procedures).
Absolutelly, some of the absurdities of the US system are also present in the so-called “Mixed” Systems (i.e. the ones with healtcare insurance but more regulated and with a public option for some) and if you look at the kinds of governments in those countries for the last 3 decades, you’ll notice they’ve been invariably neoliberal mainstream parties (setting up such systems is part of the broader tendency in Europe to privatise just about everything that has been going on since the 80s and was copied from the US).
IMHO, except for the long waiting times, the problems with Healthcare systems in part of Europe are the result of them having been transformed to become more like the US system in the last 3 decades.
Exatcly they dont know shit. While american healthcare system is clearly fucked there are many problems in european healthcare ( very country dependent tho ) ranging from lack of qualified doctors and long waiting times to very expensive treatments not covered in eu for some reason ( the one ive seen the most being uber expensive often experimental treatment where you usualy have to go to america ).
From what I’ve seen, treatments not being covered are only the case were those treatments are very expensive and there are other effective treatments (though less effective) which are much cheaper.
There’s also often a delay between a new and very expensive experimental treatment coming out and it becoming covered because it won’t be covered if it doesn’t demonstrate that it’s advantages over the other available treatments are sufficient to justify the additional cost.
Mind you, I’m talking about Public Healthcare Systems, not the so-called Mixed Systems that have mandatory Health Insurance (usually highly regulated and with a Public Insurance option for the less well off) - Mixed Systems have some of the same problems as the US System at least in my experience living in countries with one and with the other kind of system.
I’m not sure I’m other places but there’s a physician shortage in the US, Canada, but there looks to be a shortage in Europe as well…
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9799366/ https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/09/12/doctor-shortages-low-pay-and-overtime-europes-hospitals-are-under-the-weather
I have read the UK NHI doesn’t work very well exactly for the reasons mentioned above.
The UK NHI doesn’t work well because the neoliberal parties in successive governments (both the Tories and New Labour) have been defunding it so that they can - like Thatcher did with the railways - once its quality has fallen due to lack of funds claim that it’s bad because of Public management whilst it would be much better if it was Private because the Private Sector is much more competent, and privatise it.
Just like the US has fatcats that are perfectly happy to mass murder people for personal profit, so does the UK (and the British Political System is almost as bad as the American, so it’s definitelly sold to the highest bidder) and plenty of those jhave wet dreams of the country having 13% of its GDP flowing through a Private Healthcare sector like the US were they can make billions of pounds doing exactly the same as the fatcats do in US Healthcare.
Source: I lived in Britain for over a decade.
By the way, you “read that the UK NHI doesn’t work very well” is exactly because the UK media is overwhelmingly owned by tax avoiding billionaires who are part of the above mentioned fatcats who see themselves as profiting massivelly from Britain having a Healthcare System like the US. It’s not by chance that the level of trust of Britons in their Press is one of the lowest in Europe.
The exact same kind of tactics were deployed by Tatcher back when she wanted to privatise the Railways with the result that satisfaction with the Railway system in the UK is now even lower than when there was a public operator even after Thatcher defunded it to claim “Public is Bad, Private is Good” to amass enough public support to privatise it.
I don’t think there is a public health system when you are just expected to fork over half a million for an operation. Those insane healthcare prices are uniquely US phenomenon
There are public health systems that just won’t offer that operation. Or you’ll have a 1.5 year waiting list. So in the end, unless you’re rich and pay for private insurance, it comes out as the same.
(Edit: since someone thought my take is because I’m american and don’t understand. I’m european, have lived most my life in europe, this is from lived experience)
People in Australia do experience medical bankruptcy. It’s incredibly rare now. But it’s true. But it used to be so much worse before we had a public health system. And health outcomes were worse as well. And it cost more.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-18/bob-hawke-what-did-australia-have-before-medicare/11124180
An article just yesterday about the same happening in Switzerland
https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/2024/article/covid-long-delais-de-2-ans-pour-une-rente-ai-des-malades-dans-la-precarite-28723610.html?rts_source=rss_t
Not it’s not about that at all. This is about someone not getting disability checks, not healthcare, two very different things.
It’s about bankrupcy due to a medical condition.
Yes, resulting from lack of treatment and delay in paying disability benefits.
No, they got sick, now they have a long lasting condition and can’t work because of it. They did get treatment but can’t be cured (as of today long-covid is still a mystery). They didn’t lose all their money because of the medical bills, they’re losing their money because they can’t work anymore and the state is not giving them “benefits” (horrible word in this case). One is an issue with healthcare, one is an issue with social welfare, again, not the same thing.
You are full of shit.
Literally the subheading of the article
Complètement diminuées, des personnes atteintes de Covid long font face à des délais de plus deux ans pour savoir si elles auront droit ou non à une rente AI. Incapables de travailler, certaines finissent ruinées.
In english:
Completely disabled, people stricken by long COVID face delays of more than two years to know if they will have disability benefits. Incapable of working, some finish bankrupt.
Is this not an example of medical bankruptcy ie. bankruptcy due to a medical condition?
Yeah, that happens sometimes. But in this case the price of an operation will be drastically cheaper.
I had this situation in Germany, there was a minor operation I needed to have which was not life threatening so the one that insurance covered had a waiting period, so I decided to go pay out of pocket and it was around 800 euro. The cheapest price I could find in US for it started at 11000 dollars.
For sure. But now imagine your disabled and on disability income, where you get payed 1k a month and are living in poverty.
If you’re disabled and on disability income, it will absolutely not cost you 800 euro. You will be put in front of the queue for the free one. That’s why I, able bodied working person with slightly above median income, had to wait. And I think it’s as fair of a system that is possible under the circumstances.
That’s not how it works in my country. Great that that’s how your country works. The vast majority of those with universal healthcare don’t work like that.
I used to work for a disability advocacy organisation so I can assure you that.
Which country are you talking about?
My experience in; France, Switzerland, Austria, United Kingdom
For every case of a disabled persion on benefits having to wait 1.5 years for a non-urgent operation because they can’t afford private healthcare, there are a million of cases of people who get a common problem like Diabetes or Cardio-Vascular problems and get treated for free (down to getting the medicine for free, which for a person below the poverty line will be true even for the worst countries) rather than suddenly being faced with an extra monthly bill for medicine (which would be a massive hit for those poor people you cosplay as caring about for the sake of argument) or a massive bill for urgent surgery.
(Which reminds me: one thing that will NEVER happen in one of those countries, unlike in the US, is when one ends up in the emergency ward and requires an expensive treatment to save their life, they won’t get a massive bill at the end)
Oh, and even if you pay out of pocket for medicine, it’s way cheaper in those countries than the US, as governments have used their leverage to limit what Pharmaceutial companies can charge, unlike in the US.
The healthcare risks for the average individual in countries with Universal Healthcare aren’t even in the same universe as in the US.
You’re vastly underestimating the number of disabled and poor people and you’re vastly overestimating the number of things that are covered.
I get your proud of your country or your system or whatever, but please don’t minimise the experience of already marginalised groups.
Mate, as I’ve said it’s not one but TWO countries I lived in with Universal Healthcare, and you can’t be a Nationalist (as you’re trying to imply) for TWO countries.
If you’re comparing like to like - i.e. the average poor disabled person in both a country with Universal Healthcare and the US - you’re going to get some cases of those having insufficient treatment in countries with UHC (especially in those were neoliberal governments have been defunding their UHC systems to try and privatise Healthcare even against popular will, like the UK), whilst the vast majority of those people will be fucked in the US (unless they’re Veterans).
I’ve lived in several countries and it’s just an enormous peace of mind living in a country were you know that if you’re involved in an accident and end up getting costly treatement in an emergency ward, you’re not going to be ruined.
I think you’re seeing the problems relative to a specific baseline and you think that there are massive problems there (which I’m sure there are) but the thing with the US system is that the baseline itself is way worse and all those problem you see would also be problems there but much worse (or maybe not, as those people would die a lot faster, at which point no problem would be visible) and on top of that in the US there are way more people with even worse problems when it comes to Healthcare than the “poor disabled person” in a country with UHC.
Dude I’ve lived in France, Switzerland, Austria, and the UK.
I’m not trying to tell you universal healthcare is bad. I’ve never said the US system is better, in fact it’s far worse. Don’t straw man me.
All I said is the statistics on the meme are false and ignore a lot of suffering and death. And you took that as a personal attack on universal healthcare.
there’s still waiting lists in the US.