This will be the 1 (1) time I respond with much more than requesting you answer the very simple, non-loaded question.
Already lying, because you only continue to repeat yourself.
Two choices, actually. 1. To claim to be against genocide or not.
This is already established. We’re already in agreement about the morality of genocide. If you genuinely thought any differently - and weren’t just trying to bait me into a rhetorical trap, a low-effort “gotcha” - you wouldn’t even be talking to me. Someone who is actually for genocide is not worth arguing with.
To claim to support voting for genocidal candidates or not.
No, your bad-faith attempt at the Socratic Method is transparent. Let me walk you through the obvious scene you’ve constructed for me, that I refuse to play into:
You: Do you think you should support genocide or vote for genocide deniers?
Me: No.
You: So do you suggest voting for [insert random third party candidate] who pledges to end the genocide in Gaza 1?
Me: Not really, no.
You: Gasp! The contradiction! You say you should vote against genocide, yet are against those who want to stop the genocide!
1 - as soon as they manage to get more than 0.01% of votes some decades from now!
Does that about sum it up?
By the way, you never asked what I actually suggest. Even though I’ve already stated that. Though you dismissed it as posturing.
What you’re doing is a motte-and-bailey defence. You ask if I support voting for those who would perpetuate genocide, presenting the vote as a choice between genocide and no genocide. Then when I point out this rhetorical flourish, you retreat to “no, I’m just asking a simple question of if you support genocide”. It’s incredibly dishonest and disingenuous.
I figure these go together so I put them together as joint. Based on your complaining, I have just done you a great service is unraveling my very simple question. It was otherwise indecipherable by mere mortals!
It’s clear this is intended to come off as “faux arrogance”, though nonetheless still supposed to make me feel silly for “not getting it”. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Nope, you’ve gone off to talk about your excuses for your unstated honest answer
I’ve already stated my honest answer. I do not support genocide, or support genocide deniers. I do, however, recognise that the situation is more complex than just that, and voting is not going to end this genocide. If you want real results, you need to take more drastic action and put your money where your mouth is. But, like I’ve said - you won’t.
just like other liberals
No need for name-calling, here. Insults are uncouth.
choosing to leave an implication for the answer rather than direct and honest.
I’ve answered multiple times, though that answer is oddly missing from your quotes of my comment. Strange that you’d ignore that part of my comment, quite key to the discussion, considering its rather short length.
choosing to leave an implication for the answer rather than direct and honest.
The thing is, that might have been true earlier on, but not at this point where I verbatim said “no”. Also, this is a disingenuous framing; I didn’t merely “leave implications as to my answer” and nothing else. I also rejected the basis of your question, which is the appropriate response to a question you believe is unfounded. I do not have to “honestly answer” a question about my brother if I don’t have a brother, for example. And in this instance, I refuse to allow the election to be framed as a simple choice between genocide and no genocide. You’re not revealing any hypocrisy, you’re instead refusing to deal with the complexities of the absolute shitshow that is your country’s politics.
Be against genocide or for it.
I’m against it.
Vote for genocidal candidates or don’t.
I really wish it were that simple. But, if you vote for a candidate that isn’t one of the two major ones, you are burying your head in the sand and living ina fantasy world where your electoral system actually works as it should and isn’t completely wrapped up in bourgeois interests. They will not allow an actual party of the people to run. They will never listen to the voice of the proletariat. If you want to change that, voting isn’t gonna work. You need to get off your ass and change the world with your comrades. But you won’t.
Quite simple but you instead dwell on straw men and avoiding answering.
Completely empty accusation bereft of a clear example.
This is a common liberal behavior on this topic.
Again, baseless and irrelevant insult for no other reason than to attempt to upset me.
It comes from your discomfort with the honest answer that would match your dissembling.
Calling my words “dissembling” won’t magically rewrite reality to make it come true. I’m telling you my honest take on this, and you’re rejecting everything I’m saying for no other reason than the fact I’m calling out your naive view of the world.
You have such complete faith in the system, that you can simply vote the genocide away. What’s more liberal than that?
Sure, you can deny this, come back at me and say, “no, I’m not saying that at all! That’s just a straw man!”
But if that’s not your point, then I’m sorry, but you don’t even have a point. You keep repeating “vote for genocidal candidates or don’t”. If you don’t actually mean those words, then you’re just writing meaningless gibberish.
Painfully obviously a liberal.
Thing is, not only do you not have any evidence for this, but your reasoning concerning it is rather shaky. Instead of listening to what I actually say, you instead point to hidden meaning behind my words. And this hidden meaning isn’t what you consider liberal - oh no, that would actually make sense as an argument - but you suggest that the mere presence of a hidden meaning (that, may I mention once more, you imagined) is itself a liberal trait. I quote again:
[…] just like other liberals, choosing to leave an implication for the answer rather than direct and honest.
I coulda sworn that a liberal was a person who believes in liberal democracy, aka bourgeois democracy, alongside other enlightenment values like individualism, freedom of speech, equality before law, and other fart-sniffing propaganda buzzwords, though most importantly a rabid devotion to capitalism and its surrounding ideology.
Many liberals ape the phrases but spend their time defending ruling class talking points and sheepdogging for genociders.
Interesting. Which talking points of theirs have I defended, and which genociders in particular have I “sheepdogged” for?
May I point you to the many times that I have denigrated the very institution you’re defending participation in?
You can call my stated opinions “aping the phrases” if you want - which amounts to outright gaslighting in my estimation, considering I have zero faith in liberal democracy whatsoever, which is the reason I believe trying to actually start/support a party that goes against bourgeois interests is doomed to fail. The system is designed that way. Any party that gains power in this system is inevitably going to end up suborned to capital. It’s just how it works. So, once more: either change the system or do the best you can within it. I’d prefer not to prolong the current horror show, but I’m not naive enough to think a real revolution is gonna happen any time soon.
May you someday cease being a traitor to that proletariat.
Oh, please. Stop with that baseless posturing. Your continued insistence that we actually try to embolden yet another future oppressor another political party within a fundamentally bourgeois establishment does not move me to thinking you’re any kind of communist.
So, I await a yes or no answer to my simple and non-loaded question, liberal.
You are replying to a comment that has an answer to your question: an emphatic no.
First, the comment literally does not have the word “no” in it.
Second, as a reminder the question was, “Are you against genocide and voting for genocidal candidates?” You are telling me the answer, which was like pulling teeth over 7+ comment exchanges, is “no”. Got it. Will log that in the ol’ memory bank. You are either not against genocide or believe you should vote for genocidal candidates, or both.
That is indeed consistent with the dissembling zi mentioned before and why there is such cognitive dissonance: because people that hold that opinion are often embarrassed of it, they know it (correctly) makes them look like either monsters or those complicit with them, having no respectable principles.
This continued dishonesty and gaslighting can now come to an end.
First, the comment literally does not have the word “no” in it.
Are you joking? Well, for fuck’s sake: no. There it is. I’ve answered so many variations of “I do not support genocide or genocidal candidates” that I’m genuinely baffled you haven’t figured it out yet. What is wrong with you??
Second, as a reminder the question was, “Are you against genocide and voting for genocidal candidates?”
No, it was “do you support” them.
You are telling me the answer, which was like pulling teeth over 7+ comment exchanges, is “no”.
No, I told you that long, long ago.
Got it. Will log that in the ol’ memory bank.
Why are you being sarcastic?
You are either not against genocide or believe you should vote for genocidal candidates, or both.
Nope. Neither. (:
That is indeed consistent with the dissembling zi mentioned before and why there is such cognitive dissonance
There has been no dissembling or cognitive dissonance: that is merely your unfounded accusation, apropos of absolutely fuckin’ nothing. You’re just arguing this for the sake of it at this point, i.e. trolling. I also don’t quite understand why you said “zi”.
because people that hold that opinion are often embarrassed of it, they know it (correctly) makes them look like either monsters or those complicit with them, having no respectable principles.
Yes, I agree with that assessment of such a person that you described.
However, I never actually said what you’re claiming I did.
I have done neither, thanks.
In the very comment I’m replying to, you literally just took my answer as the inverse of what it was (by pretending you asked the reverse of what you did), and did so in complete seriousness, expecting me to actually fall for it.
Already lying, because you only continue to repeat yourself.
This is already established. We’re already in agreement about the morality of genocide. If you genuinely thought any differently - and weren’t just trying to bait me into a rhetorical trap, a low-effort “gotcha” - you wouldn’t even be talking to me. Someone who is actually for genocide is not worth arguing with.
No, your bad-faith attempt at the Socratic Method is transparent. Let me walk you through the obvious scene you’ve constructed for me, that I refuse to play into:
1 - as soon as they manage to get more than 0.01% of votes some decades from now!
Does that about sum it up?
By the way, you never asked what I actually suggest. Even though I’ve already stated that. Though you dismissed it as posturing.
What you’re doing is a motte-and-bailey defence. You ask if I support voting for those who would perpetuate genocide, presenting the vote as a choice between genocide and no genocide. Then when I point out this rhetorical flourish, you retreat to “no, I’m just asking a simple question of if you support genocide”. It’s incredibly dishonest and disingenuous.
It’s clear this is intended to come off as “faux arrogance”, though nonetheless still supposed to make me feel silly for “not getting it”. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I’ve already stated my honest answer. I do not support genocide, or support genocide deniers. I do, however, recognise that the situation is more complex than just that, and voting is not going to end this genocide. If you want real results, you need to take more drastic action and put your money where your mouth is. But, like I’ve said - you won’t.
No need for name-calling, here. Insults are uncouth.
I’ve answered multiple times, though that answer is oddly missing from your quotes of my comment. Strange that you’d ignore that part of my comment, quite key to the discussion, considering its rather short length.
The thing is, that might have been true earlier on, but not at this point where I verbatim said “no”. Also, this is a disingenuous framing; I didn’t merely “leave implications as to my answer” and nothing else. I also rejected the basis of your question, which is the appropriate response to a question you believe is unfounded. I do not have to “honestly answer” a question about my brother if I don’t have a brother, for example. And in this instance, I refuse to allow the election to be framed as a simple choice between genocide and no genocide. You’re not revealing any hypocrisy, you’re instead refusing to deal with the complexities of the absolute shitshow that is your country’s politics.
I’m against it.
I really wish it were that simple. But, if you vote for a candidate that isn’t one of the two major ones, you are burying your head in the sand and living ina fantasy world where your electoral system actually works as it should and isn’t completely wrapped up in bourgeois interests. They will not allow an actual party of the people to run. They will never listen to the voice of the proletariat. If you want to change that, voting isn’t gonna work. You need to get off your ass and change the world with your comrades. But you won’t.
Completely empty accusation bereft of a clear example.
Again, baseless and irrelevant insult for no other reason than to attempt to upset me.
Calling my words “dissembling” won’t magically rewrite reality to make it come true. I’m telling you my honest take on this, and you’re rejecting everything I’m saying for no other reason than the fact I’m calling out your naive view of the world.
You have such complete faith in the system, that you can simply vote the genocide away. What’s more liberal than that?
Sure, you can deny this, come back at me and say, “no, I’m not saying that at all! That’s just a straw man!”
But if that’s not your point, then I’m sorry, but you don’t even have a point. You keep repeating “vote for genocidal candidates or don’t”. If you don’t actually mean those words, then you’re just writing meaningless gibberish.
Thing is, not only do you not have any evidence for this, but your reasoning concerning it is rather shaky. Instead of listening to what I actually say, you instead point to hidden meaning behind my words. And this hidden meaning isn’t what you consider liberal - oh no, that would actually make sense as an argument - but you suggest that the mere presence of a hidden meaning (that, may I mention once more, you imagined) is itself a liberal trait. I quote again:
I coulda sworn that a liberal was a person who believes in liberal democracy, aka bourgeois democracy, alongside other enlightenment values like individualism, freedom of speech, equality before law, and other fart-sniffing propaganda buzzwords, though most importantly a rabid devotion to capitalism and its surrounding ideology.
Interesting. Which talking points of theirs have I defended, and which genociders in particular have I “sheepdogged” for?
May I point you to the many times that I have denigrated the very institution you’re defending participation in?
You can call my stated opinions “aping the phrases” if you want - which amounts to outright gaslighting in my estimation, considering I have zero faith in liberal democracy whatsoever, which is the reason I believe trying to actually start/support a party that goes against bourgeois interests is doomed to fail. The system is designed that way. Any party that gains power in this system is inevitably going to end up suborned to capital. It’s just how it works. So, once more: either change the system or do the best you can within it. I’d prefer not to prolong the current horror show, but I’m not naive enough to think a real revolution is gonna happen any time soon.
Oh, please. Stop with that baseless posturing. Your continued insistence that we actually try to embolden
yet another future oppressoranother political party within a fundamentally bourgeois establishment does not move me to thinking you’re any kind of communist.I guess third time’s a charm, right?
I don’t see a yes or no.
See why I didn’t elaborate before? Liberals that are deflecting love to take up any space you give them - except for what they were trying yo avoid.
So hey, let me know when you can answer a simple question. Are you against genocide and voting for genocidal candidates?
Try reading again:
I asked yes or no question and I don’t see a yes or no.
This simole fact should not require so much repetition and explanation, but we both know why that is happening. Pure cognitive dissonance.
You are replying to a comment that has an answer to your question: an emphatic no.
This continued dishonesty and gaslighting can now come to an end.
First, the comment literally does not have the word “no” in it.
Second, as a reminder the question was, “Are you against genocide and voting for genocidal candidates?” You are telling me the answer, which was like pulling teeth over 7+ comment exchanges, is “no”. Got it. Will log that in the ol’ memory bank. You are either not against genocide or believe you should vote for genocidal candidates, or both.
That is indeed consistent with the dissembling zi mentioned before and why there is such cognitive dissonance: because people that hold that opinion are often embarrassed of it, they know it (correctly) makes them look like either monsters or those complicit with them, having no respectable principles.
I have done neither, thanks.
Are you joking? Well, for fuck’s sake: no. There it is. I’ve answered so many variations of “I do not support genocide or genocidal candidates” that I’m genuinely baffled you haven’t figured it out yet. What is wrong with you??
No, it was “do you support” them.
No, I told you that long, long ago.
Why are you being sarcastic?
Nope. Neither. (:
There has been no dissembling or cognitive dissonance: that is merely your unfounded accusation, apropos of absolutely fuckin’ nothing. You’re just arguing this for the sake of it at this point, i.e. trolling. I also don’t quite understand why you said “zi”.
Yes, I agree with that assessment of such a person that you described.
However, I never actually said what you’re claiming I did.
In the very comment I’m replying to, you literally just took my answer as the inverse of what it was (by pretending you asked the reverse of what you did), and did so in complete seriousness, expecting me to actually fall for it.
Gaslighting, clear as day.